Jarosław Kaczyński, leader of Law and Justice (PiS), the largest opposition faction and the previous ruling party, has denied that high-ranking state officials were being surveilled by the security services when his party was in power. He also denied that matters of spyware had been raised during cabinet meetings.
Kaczyński testified on Friday in front of the parliamentary committee investigating the alleged use of Pegasus spyware by the previous PiS government.
The new coalition government is accusing PiS that, when it was in power, purchased the spyware from the Israeli firm NSO to spy on people linked with the then opposition, citing reports from Citizen Lab, a specialized unit at the University of Toronto, phone maker Apple, and Amnesty International.
Pegasus can be used to gain access to information stored on smartphones and eavesdrop on conversations.
Kaczyński, one of the first key figures from the previous government to testify in front of the committee, was asked whether the security services wiretapped any top politicians when he was a deputy minister in charge of national security, in which capacity he served from October 2020, until June 2022.
The new coalition government is accusing PiS that, when it was in power, purchased the spyware from the Israeli firm NSO to spy on people linked with the then opposition, citing reports from Citizen Lab, a specialized unit at the University of Toronto, phone maker Apple, and Amnesty International.
Pegasus can be used to gain access to information stored on smartphones and eavesdrop on conversations.
Kaczyński, one of the first key figures from the previous government to testify in front of the committee, was asked whether the security services wiretapped any top politicians when he was a deputy minister in charge of national security, in which capacity he served from October 2020, until June 2022.
Kaczyński said that such a decision was in the hands of the courts, but Mariusz Kamiński, the former interior minister, would have informed him about it.
“There has not been a situation where people in high state positions have been subject to surveillance by the services. At least I am not aware of it,” Kaczyński responded, to a question on whether he supervised the security service operations.
During the hearing, Kaczyński said he “did not attach much importance to the Pegasus case.”
“I considered it an element of the campaign,” he added, in an apparent reference to the October 2023 election campaign when the Pegasus probe was one of the current government’s top pledges.
“There has not been a situation where people in high state positions have been subject to surveillance by the services. At least I am not aware of it,” Kaczyński responded, to a question on whether he supervised the security service operations.
During the hearing, Kaczyński said he “did not attach much importance to the Pegasus case.”
“I considered it an element of the campaign,” he added, in an apparent reference to the October 2023 election campaign when the Pegasus probe was one of the current government’s top pledges.
He has previously denied that Pegasus was used against opposition politicians during the 2019 parliamentary election campaign.
Kaczyński also testified that he did not remember the topic of Pegasus being raised at cabinet meetings and that he cannot recall when and from whom he learned about it.
Asked who offered him the position of deputy prime minister in charge of security, Kaczyński replied that the head of the ruling party could decide about himself taking up such a function. When asked about why he did not choose to make himself prime minister, he said he thought that Mateusz Morawiecki was better suited for the role.
He also said that minutes were taken at all meetings of the security committee but “in a way that is appropriate for meetings during which matters are discussed that cannot come to light, even in very special circumstances.”
Kaczyński also testified that he did not remember the topic of Pegasus being raised at cabinet meetings and that he cannot recall when and from whom he learned about it.
Asked who offered him the position of deputy prime minister in charge of security, Kaczyński replied that the head of the ruling party could decide about himself taking up such a function. When asked about why he did not choose to make himself prime minister, he said he thought that Mateusz Morawiecki was better suited for the role.
He also said that minutes were taken at all meetings of the security committee but “in a way that is appropriate for meetings during which matters are discussed that cannot come to light, even in very special circumstances.”
Turbulent proceedings for the committee
The hearing started with verbal altercations triggered by Kaczyński’s incomplete oath. He declared to tell the whole truth but did not repeat the rest of the oath: “not hiding anything as far as I am aware.”
Kaczyński invoked Article 11e of the Parliamentary Investigative Committee Act, which says that the witness cannot reveal information disclosed as “secret” or “top secret” without the relevant authority's permission.
“I am not promising to say everything I know, because I simply cannot do so without permission from the prime minister,” he explained.
The committee ruled to turn to the District Court to impose a fine on Kaczyński for taking an incomplete oath.
The proceedings of the committee had to be halted, when two of its members Mariusz Gosek and Jacek Ozdoba, both PiS MPs, were removed for what was deemed disruptive behavior, following a motion from MP Marcin Bosacki (Civic Coalition, KO).
Kaczyński said that the removal of the two MPs from an investigation committee which should reflect the composition of the lower house puts into question whether he is still obliged to appear before the body, and that he intends to consult with his lawyers on the matter.
The committee’s chair, Magdalena Sroka (Polish People’s Party-Third Way, PSL-TD) said that upon having consulted a lawyer attached to the committee, the removed MPs can appeal the decision.
The hearing started with verbal altercations triggered by Kaczyński’s incomplete oath. He declared to tell the whole truth but did not repeat the rest of the oath: “not hiding anything as far as I am aware.”
Kaczyński invoked Article 11e of the Parliamentary Investigative Committee Act, which says that the witness cannot reveal information disclosed as “secret” or “top secret” without the relevant authority's permission.
“I am not promising to say everything I know, because I simply cannot do so without permission from the prime minister,” he explained.
The committee ruled to turn to the District Court to impose a fine on Kaczyński for taking an incomplete oath.
The proceedings of the committee had to be halted, when two of its members Mariusz Gosek and Jacek Ozdoba, both PiS MPs, were removed for what was deemed disruptive behavior, following a motion from MP Marcin Bosacki (Civic Coalition, KO).
Kaczyński said that the removal of the two MPs from an investigation committee which should reflect the composition of the lower house puts into question whether he is still obliged to appear before the body, and that he intends to consult with his lawyers on the matter.
The committee’s chair, Magdalena Sroka (Polish People’s Party-Third Way, PSL-TD) said that upon having consulted a lawyer attached to the committee, the removed MPs can appeal the decision.
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