In the wake of recent tragic events in Gaza, where a Polish volunteer from the World Central Kitchen died in an attack for which the Israeli Army took responsibility, Yacov Livne, Israeli Ambassador to Poland, was our guest on Wednesday afternoon.
Ambassador Yacov Livne: Well, as we have said repeatedly, we express deep regret over what has happened in Gaza, and I would also like to personally offer our condolences, my own condolences to the tragic death of the seven members of the organization, World Central Kitchen, people who came together to assist people who need this assistance. One of these people who was killed was a Polish citizen, Mr. Damian Soból. And this is a real tragedy that happened in times of war, in difficult times. We will investigate what has happened, understand what actually took place, and take every possible measure so that such things will not be repeated, of course. So this is the situation currently.
Don Arleth, TVP World: Now, Mr. Ambassador, I have to ask, because one of the reports from Israeli media says that these convoys normally coordinate with COGAT, which is the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories, but this time they coordinated directly with the IDF. And, there are media reports that say that the convoy was specifically targeted because the IDF was suspicious that there could have been a terrorist amongst these humanitarian aid workers. Is that possible that the IDF would make such a decision? And have there been situations in the past when such decisions like that have been made?
Well, it's important to remind us all, the IDF, Israeli Defense Forces have never targeted civilians, in order to kill them. We are targeting only Hamas terrorists who unfortunately hide behind the backs of their own civilian population in Gaza. Actually, we have a situation in which tens of thousands of these Jihadi Islamists are hiding behind about two million civilian people in Gaza. This tragic event happened during the night, during a time of a very difficult war that we are having now for six months. We’re still in a situation where more than 130 Israeli hostages are being held by Hamas. I have the yellow ribbon to remind us all about what is actually happening in Gaza today and why the war in Gaza has started. So this is the situation in which we are. This is a war that we need to win, not only for the sake of Israel but for the sake of Western civilization. This is the kind of war that we are having now.
MK: Let’s go back to the convoy. I believe it is a confirmed fact that the movements of this convoy were coordinated with the IDF.
DA: And it was struck not just once, but three times.
Well, obviously we would not target and we would not hit a humanitarian convoy on purpose. This is simply something that the IDF does not do. But a tragic event has happened. And we need to investigate this. This is what we are doing now. We hope that the results of the investigation will be clear in a matter of days and then we will be able to share this information with our friends and partners. Also, of course, in Poland.
I spoke yesterday with the Foreign Minister, Mr. Sikorski, and promised him that once we have reliable information, once we understand exactly what has happened, we will share this with the Foreign Ministry, with our colleagues in Poland, because this is how we operate. This is what we do.
MK: Do you have any idea how those who will be found responsible, what consequences, what will happen to those people?
Well, I think first we need to understand what happened, how it happened, how this accident was possible to make sure that it will not repeat itself, and then, of course, draw all the necessary conclusions as we always do.
DA: So, I know you've expressed just how important it is to have an investigation, a thorough investigation, that would tell us exactly why this happened, but in the meantime, as a result of this strike, many humanitarian aid organizations are pulling out their foreign staff until this investigation is completed. So, this leaves the people of Gaza in an even more difficult situation, at this time.
Well, the situation in Gaza is very difficult because of the Hamas. This is something that we need to remind ourselves. It has been difficult for almost 20 years since Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip, murdered all of their political opponents, and actually ended up making sure that no Palestinians in Gaza will be able to say what they think. During the last six months, we have been in a war that is a result of the brutal unprecedented attack of Hamas on Israel, actually an attack that we have not seen since the Holocaust. This is why we're having now this war against the Hamas that we have to win. Now, we have done everything in the past and we will continue to do everything possible to make sure that humanitarian assistance will arrive, and reach the people of Gaza. The world, the Central Kitchen Organization, whose people were tragically killed, is an organization with which we are cooperating on a daily basis. They play an important role in bringing food to people in Gaza. We will certainly continue to do this.
MK: At the moment, organizations are actually withdrawing their activities because they’re essentially worried that they will get attacked.
This is one of the reasons why we need to understand exactly what happened so that such tragedies will not happen again. We are in close contact with all the organizations, all the relief organizations that are operating in Gaza, and we will make sure that they will continue and have the possibility to bring humanitarian assistance, to bring food to the people of Gaza.
MK: Moving on to more domestic issues, let’s have a look at what Foreign Minister Sikorski and Foreign Ministry Spokesman Paweł Wroński had to say.
(Statement of Foreign Ministry Spokesman Paweł Wroński) It's not my job to comment on the words of other countries' Prime Ministers, but I don't think this was a mere accident, as some officials are trying to frame it. The international community's outrage at the response to what happened also showed that it cannot be treated as just some wartime mishap.
(Statement of Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski) If it is confirmed, as reported in the Israeli press, that this was a deliberate attack because they thought there was a terrorist there, my ethical sensibilities do not allow me to sacrifice the lives of seven civilians to kill a terrorist who poses no immediate threat. Something is very wrong with the Israeli rules and the use of weapons, and let me remind you, they have already killed their own hostages as well. If what happened really is, as reported in the Israeli press, and we have been promised an in-depth investigation and cooperation with our persecution, then Israel owes the families of these volunteers an apology and compensation.
MK: And the obvious question is, what is your response to these statements? There’s been quite a lot of uproar on the Polish social media, which I’m sure you’ve been following.
We fully understand that there are many people in Poland who grieve with the family of Mr. Soból, and so do we. This is a tragic event that should not have happened. And we will investigate how it happened and why. I think what we should concentrate on today is on the way forward. What can we do together with our friends and partners in Poland in order to make sure that the Hamas terrorist organization is defeated, that the Israeli hostages will return to their families, and that we will have a better and stable situation not only in the Middle East but also in the world. This is what we are aiming at as we speak.
DA: Just a reminder, a social media post by Prime Minister Donald Tusk said: Prime Minister Netanyahu, Ambassador Livne – the vast majority of Poles demonstrated full solidarity with Israel following the Hamas attack last October. Today you’re putting this solidarity into question. This tragic attack on the volunteers and your reactions are drawing understandable anger.
If you could please respond to this, because here in Poland, observing the situation since October 7, Poles have been standing with Israel since October 7.
Once again, it's very important to reiterate. We deeply regret what has happened. Obviously, we’re sorry for that, and we are going to investigate how it happened. But we should not forget the basic things that unite us. We should not forget that Israel and Poland, Israel and the Western world, we stand on the same side of history, we stand on the same side of the battle that is happening today between civilization and barbarity. These are the basic facts that we have to keep in mind and work together to solve the issues and the problems that are currently at hand.
DA: Are you concerned about this event devolving in some way throughout Polish society, causing a rift between Polish and Israeli relations?
Well, I hope it will not be the case. Unfortunately, we have seen since the beginning of the war against Hamas, a surge of anti-Semitism in many countries, not only in Poland, and obviously it was part of what we had to deal with. But I believe we should deal with this together, with the Polish government, with the main political, responsible parties in Poland, and I’m sure we can achieve good results working together.
MK: But you mentioned a surge of anti-Semitism in several countries, I think that was the case in the U.K. and in France once the war began. But I think in Poland, that really was the case, I don't know what your observations were, but I really think that the Poles were very supportive of Israel.
Well, unfortunately, the surge of anti-Semitism happened not only in Great Britain or France, it also happened in many countries, also in this country, in Poland. We saw anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic demonstrations on the streets of most of the large cities in Poland, something that we regret very much, I think something that many responsible people in Poland have also regretted. Anti-Semitism is something that we have to fight together, because it's not so much, as I often say, it’s not so much the problem of Israel or of the Jewish community, it's first and foremost a problem of the society in which it exists. Once again, we need to fight this together, but we always need to remember that in the case of countries such as Poland and Israel, we are in the same camp on the same side of civilization fighting against barbarity. I cannot emphasize this enough, this is the kind of struggle, the kind of challenge that we are facing now.
DA: And as we conclude Mr. Ambassador, are you confident that justice will be served once this investigation is complete?
The Israeli judicial system is considered, I think, to be one of the strongest and most efficient, I would say in the world, it operates very successfully, also in tragic events such as this one. I’m sure that the results will be clear, and they will also be transparently shared with our friends in Poland.
MK: Just one final question, does that mean that you will be working in parallel with the district prosecutor from Przemyśl, because, I understand that they also would like to undertake their independent investigation?
The investigation will be conducted as always by Israeli authorities, first and foremost, by the military authorities who are there in Gaza. Let us not forget, this is a zone of war. So it's not that easy to conduct such an investigation, it's not as if we can just walk in and collect all the evidence. In times of war, it's significantly more difficult, but we will conduct this investigation, we will make every effort to understand exactly what has happened and how this tragic event could take place.
DA: Ambassador Yacov Livne, thank you very much for joining us today on TVP World, we appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.